Comments on: “Remove the politicians from education” http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/ Making Sense of Politics & Pop Culture Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:50:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Kate Green, Zombie Shooter http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19455 Kate Green, Zombie Shooter Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:46:30 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19455 I have the tendency to ramble a lot of stuff on religion. Sorry if my response was a bit long-winded. I think the idea that one shouldn't allow non-academics 'within 10 feet of making a decision' is appealing to authority, which is a kind of logical fallacy. I mean, the people behind ID are all scientists. That doesn't mean they're not guilty of flawed logic. I have the tendency to ramble a lot of stuff on religion. Sorry if my response was a bit long-winded.

I think the idea that one shouldn’t allow non-academics ‘within 10 feet of making a decision’ is appealing to authority, which is a kind of logical fallacy.

I mean, the people behind ID are all scientists. That doesn’t mean they’re not guilty of flawed logic.

]]> By: born2reign http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19447 born2reign Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:37:46 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19447 My worry with academicians controlling education is that we may end up with a mob-rule education policy, which may not necessary be right. Humans believe they are at the top of the food chain, the intelligent being. The joke is they cannot even make head or tail of their own brain, how it is manufactured, why it is designed in such a way, how to prevent and detect stroke, mental illness etc. The education policy may establish certain subjects to be taught in school, however parents have the last say on what to educate our children. My worry with academicians controlling education is that we may end up with a mob-rule education policy, which may not necessary be right.

Humans believe they are at the top of the food chain, the intelligent being. The joke is they cannot even make head or tail of their own brain, how it is manufactured, why it is designed in such a way, how to prevent and detect stroke, mental illness etc.

The education policy may establish certain subjects to be taught in school, however parents have the last say on what to educate our children.

]]> By: Sean http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19428 Sean Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:01:27 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19428 I'd hesitate to propose that my kids 'learn from the Web'. They see a lot of 'the Web' - the TV in the living room is driven by a PC rather than a tuner or satellite decoder. CBeebies and Yoko! Jakamoko! Toto! are only a few short clicks away from "how did you find <em>that</em>?". But even if there's not quite so much promotion of augmentation mammoplasty or rape scene reconstruction on the Web as there is on TV, it's hardly a positive learning environment either, is it? Perhaps I'm a traditionalist, but I think there's a gulf between directed learning in an environment designed for the purpose and the information that splashes on us as we wander through life, channels or the Web. I’d hesitate to propose that my kids ‘learn from the Web’. They see a lot of ‘the Web’ – the TV in the living room is driven by a PC rather than a tuner or satellite decoder. CBeebies and Yoko! Jakamoko! Toto! are only a few short clicks away from “how did you find that?”. But even if there’s not quite so much promotion of augmentation mammoplasty or rape scene reconstruction on the Web as there is on TV, it’s hardly a positive learning environment either, is it?

Perhaps I’m a traditionalist, but I think there’s a gulf between directed learning in an environment designed for the purpose and the information that splashes on us as we wander through life, channels or the Web.

]]> By: another teacher http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19422 another teacher Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:09:44 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19422 We must not be afraid to impart or facilitate in our class current views that contribute towards the first base eg, scriptural hermenuetics, Darwin's theory; now the much discussed ID (don't mean here but on other forums) and other approaches; more importantly is the courage and responsibility and accountability to challenge and inspire each young mind in the class to think things through critically for their selves and [to] draw [their own] conclusions. The moment we impose our own due to fears over this school of thought or that school predominating over another, parents, teachers and politicians are equally guilty of stultifying an already much maligned and marauded education system, read, specifically in the Malaysian context. For years, we have been driven by survival instincts to obtain good grades through the easiest means; pressure, rote, regurgitation, tuition, kiasuism, maybe even vain glory of child and parent and teacher. Look at the newspapers each time it's convo or time for public examination results. Until today we have whole generation(s?) of youth with excellent grades who cannot express themselves, present or articulate with convincing reasoning skills because they are bereft of ideas, language proficiency, critical thinking/learning training processes in the system et al The alarm increases unceasingly. What we are doing or not doing for our kids and young people? [There is] a long way to travel. We must not be afraid to impart or facilitate in our class current views that contribute towards the first base eg, scriptural hermenuetics, Darwin’s theory; now the much discussed ID (don’t mean here but on other forums) and other approaches; more importantly is the courage and responsibility and accountability to challenge and inspire each young mind in the class to think things through critically for their selves and [to] draw [their own] conclusions. The moment we impose our own due to fears over this school of thought or that school predominating over another, parents, teachers and politicians are equally guilty of stultifying an already much maligned and marauded education system, read, specifically in the Malaysian context. For years, we have been driven by survival instincts to obtain good grades through the easiest means; pressure, rote, regurgitation, tuition, kiasuism, maybe even vain glory of child and parent and teacher. Look at the newspapers each time it’s convo or time for public examination results. Until today we have whole generation(s?) of youth with excellent grades who cannot express themselves, present or articulate with convincing reasoning skills because they are bereft of ideas, language proficiency, critical thinking/learning training processes in the system et al

The alarm increases unceasingly. What we are doing or not doing for our kids and young people? [There is] a long way to travel.

]]> By: feicipet http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19398 feicipet Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:42:40 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19398 Kate, The "same basic tenets" I was referring to was that which in the end, both proponents of ID and creationism hope to prove that there is a creator. In the spirit of trying to keep this within the scope of education, I would posit ID as the perfect example of how knowledge should not be gained or taught. ID proponents claim that their theories are formulated based on scientific principles and yes, it would look scientific to the untrained eye. But even the methodologies were eventually contested in scientific journals and to date, ID is still struggling to gain recognition in the right circles. Now, given that the layman would have huge difficulties to comprehend and understand the right and wrong of all this, how can anyone allow non-academics within 10 feet of making a decision on what to teach is really beyond me. Most of us are simply not qualified and those qualified can only be politicians or parents by coincidence. Sorry, Kate, I can't really go into the details of ID with you within the context of this article. It would be really out of topic and would sadly detract from the noble aim of improving education itself. Kate,

The “same basic tenets” I was referring to was that which in the end, both proponents of ID and creationism hope to prove that there is a creator.

In the spirit of trying to keep this within the scope of education, I would posit ID as the perfect example of how knowledge should not be gained or taught. ID proponents claim that their theories are formulated based on scientific principles and yes, it would look scientific to the untrained eye. But even the methodologies were eventually contested in scientific journals and to date, ID is still struggling to gain recognition in the right circles.

Now, given that the layman would have huge difficulties to comprehend and understand the right and wrong of all this, how can anyone allow non-academics within 10 feet of making a decision on what to teach is really beyond me. Most of us are simply not qualified and those qualified can only be politicians or parents by coincidence.

Sorry, Kate, I can’t really go into the details of ID with you within the context of this article. It would be really out of topic and would sadly detract from the noble aim of improving education itself.

]]> By: aspiring parent http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19386 aspiring parent Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:24:15 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19386 Is it even possible to have different systems working together? Parents who want to be locked out from schools go send their children to school and support that system. Parents who think that they can manage it themselves, just do it. If MOE or certain organizations can set guidelines and provide support and let them all coexist, it would be good. Keep the examinations if people choose to. I see the discussion is assuming the "one size fits all" approach. I for one, when I have kids, what to know what are the choices available. Is it even possible to have different systems working together?
Parents who want to be locked out from schools go send their children to school and support that system. Parents who think that they can manage it themselves, just do it. If MOE or certain organizations can set guidelines and provide support and let them all coexist, it would be good. Keep the examinations if people choose to. I see the discussion is assuming the “one size fits all” approach. I for one, when I have kids, what to know what are the choices available.

]]> By: Kate Green, Zombie Shooter http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19379 Kate Green, Zombie Shooter Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:59:15 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19379 To feicipet: No, creationism and ID are not from the same source. The people behind them have completely different goals, and completely different motivations. The Young Earth Creationists I know are completely different from the ID-proponents. Young Earth Creationism is a belief system that emerged from literalist Bible hermeneutics. ID is the belief that gaps in the evolution theory point to the activity of a Maker. Among the hardcore American Protestants I know, ID is not entertained as much as Young Earth Creationism. Literalist Bible hermeneutics takes the stance that anything that God did not mean metaphorically was clearly indicated in the text itself. For example, a parable did not happen literally because it is understood to be fiction. A work of poetry does not happen literally because it is understood to be poetry. But if the account is historical, then it has to be historically true, because for Scripture to be God's Words, it must be the absolute perfection of truth -- so something cannot just be metaphorically or theologically true, but also literally true. The Creation account in Genesis was not written in poetic form. Therefore, the writers and the readers understood it as a literal account. This can either mean that the Bible is wrong, or the world as we understand it is wrong. The faithful choose the latter. As someone I know once said, "It's not about arguing against science, it's about the innerancy of Scripture". ID itself pays very little attention to Bible hermeneutics. Much of its arguments is simply the act of pointing gaps in contemporary evolutionary theory. In fact, for ID to work properly, it must also be regarded as false by the Young Earth Creationist. They are really not the same systems. They are not supported by the same people, nor strengthened by the same sentiments (except perhaps a vague distrust of contemporary science). To feicipet:

No, creationism and ID are not from the same source. The people behind them have completely different goals, and completely different motivations. The Young Earth Creationists I know are completely different from the ID-proponents.

Young Earth Creationism is a belief system that emerged from literalist Bible hermeneutics. ID is the belief that gaps in the evolution theory point to the activity of a Maker. Among the hardcore American Protestants I know, ID is not entertained as much as Young Earth Creationism.

Literalist Bible hermeneutics takes the stance that anything that God did not mean metaphorically was clearly indicated in the text itself. For example, a parable did not happen literally because it is understood to be fiction. A work of poetry does not happen literally because it is understood to be poetry. But if the account is historical, then it has to be historically true, because for Scripture to be God’s Words, it must be the absolute perfection of truth — so something cannot just be metaphorically or theologically true, but also literally true.

The Creation account in Genesis was not written in poetic form. Therefore, the writers and the readers understood it as a literal account. This can either mean that the Bible is wrong, or the world as we understand it is wrong. The faithful choose the latter. As someone I know once said, “It’s not about arguing against science, it’s about the innerancy of Scripture”.

ID itself pays very little attention to Bible hermeneutics. Much of its arguments is simply the act of pointing gaps in contemporary evolutionary theory. In fact, for ID to work properly, it must also be regarded as false by the Young Earth Creationist.

They are really not the same systems. They are not supported by the same people, nor strengthened by the same sentiments (except perhaps a vague distrust of contemporary science).

]]> By: Kate Green, Zombie Shooter http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19370 Kate Green, Zombie Shooter Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:22:25 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19370 Learning from the web and TV is true for urban middle-class students, but not true for rural students or the urban poor. Learning from the web and TV is true for urban middle-class students, but not true for rural students or the urban poor.

]]> By: feicipet http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19369 feicipet Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:16:58 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19369 Kate, you're right there. I was lumping ID together with creationism, which was not exactly right. The direct association between creationism and ID should be removed. But nevertheless, ID has its roots in creationism and can be considered a reworked derivative circling around the same basic tenets. Kate, you’re right there. I was lumping ID together with creationism, which was not exactly right. The direct association between creationism and ID should be removed. But nevertheless, ID has its roots in creationism and can be considered a reworked derivative circling around the same basic tenets.

]]> By: Kate Green, Zombie Shooter http://www.thenutgraph.com/%e2%80%9cremove-the-politicians-from-education%e2%80%9d/#comment-19367 Kate Green, Zombie Shooter Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:11:43 +0000 http://www.thenutgraph.com/?p=10049#comment-19367 As a teacher myself, I'm disappointed at the lack of discussion that involves the experience of teaching in a classroom. Much talk about how education should be done do not come from people who've actually taught in a schooling environment. It is so important to get their perspectives. My own perspective of the role of an educator and non-tertiary formal education radically changed the minute I stepped into my first secondary-level class. I'm glad that the panel includes at least one former teacher, but it didn't seem as if she had much time to dwell on the experience of teaching in class. Perhaps the discussion topic was simply too broad. If TNG addresses this topic again, I hope that you can narrow it down to something more specific. As a teacher myself, I’m disappointed at the lack of discussion that involves the experience of teaching in a classroom. Much talk about how education should be done do not come from people who’ve actually taught in a schooling environment. It is so important to get their perspectives. My own perspective of the role of an educator and non-tertiary formal education radically changed the minute I stepped into my first secondary-level class.

I’m glad that the panel includes at least one former teacher, but it didn’t seem as if she had much time to dwell on the experience of teaching in class. Perhaps the discussion topic was simply too broad.

If TNG addresses this topic again, I hope that you can narrow it down to something more specific.

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